THE CONVERSATION! - PART 2   (July.2005) 



     The following is the second part of the true story based conversation which we released in February of 2004.  The first part of the Conversation was a pretty exact depiction of the results of some conversations that W. C. Kisiel and myself have had with both mainstream Christians, and ordinary American's with no stated religious affiliation.

    In the second part of the conversation, Curt has made an appointment with the Pastor of their church, and has asked the Pastor to invite Jacob to the meeting to discuss the contents of their former conversation.  Curt has given Pastor J. Smythe a rundown of the Conversation.  Pastor Smythe is concerned for Jacob, given Curt's depiction of the discussion they had.  

    This part of the Conversation is gathered from many stories in the news, and on the internet, and from mainstream Christian leadership's statements regarding what the Church's handling of people who believe as Jacob does should be.  It also comes from our first hand experiences with dealing with Pastors and Parishioners in certain Church's bible studies we have attended, where these discussions have come up.

    As the conversation begins however, will the Pastor begin to see a different picture than the one that Curt had drawn for him?  What will pastor Smythe have to say regarding the verses of scripture that will be discussed?  Join us now for this second installment of this important, and relevant 21st Century Conversation!  


(see the first Conversation Article, in order to fully understand the context of this article)



     Curt is a main stream American evangelical Christian, active in his Church, "on fire" for the Lord, and educated in his faith by the mainstream Church in America today.  He goes to Sunday school classes, attends Church every Sunday, and is considered a good Christian man.  He has three children, all boys, and a beautiful wife who shares all of his spiritual convictions.  He is a very well to do man, who runs his own business, spending approximately 60-70 hours each week at the office, and even spends 10-12 hours at home each week on his Computer and on the phone, working out business details, he is a hard working man, who considers himself a patriotic American.

     Jacob is a Christian as well, who has experiences with the Lord ranging back as far as three decades.  He was once very active in his Church, and had a ministry to the youth, with a strong emphasis on personal evangelism.  He has however, within the last two years, returned from a long hiatus from Church attendance, and his fellow Christians look at him with skepticism and concern, assuming that his spiritual life is hanging in the balance of so many years away from the Church. He has a job, and is happily married with one Child, also a Boy.  Jacob spends many hours each week reading the word and praying.  He has never left his faith behind.  In fact, does not even really have an explanation as to why he stopped attending Church.  Having returned after many years, Jacob has noticed a very powerful change that has come over the people he used to know.

    Pastor J. Smythe is the senior pastor of the Church that Curt and Jacob grew up in.  He is a kind-hearted, easy going man who fancies himself a peacemaker, and who pride's himself in his ability to show great tolerance for other's perspective on the scriptures, and the Christian Life in general.  He often shows great tact and diplomacy when discussing the word with his parishioners, and gently uses the scriptures to mentor them in the direction of what the word says on matters, rather than entering theological debate, or lecturing them.  Pastor Smythe has heard Curt's side of the story, and expects to have to use his mentoring skills to straighten out Jacob's false impressions of world events, and of his view of American leadership.  Let's listen in...


Pastor Smythe: Hello Gentlemen, thank you for coming in.  Why don't we start our time together with some prayer? 

Jacob:  Amen.

Curt: Yes, let's.

Pastor Smythe: Lord, I thank you for Curt, and for Jacob.  I thank you for their continued interest in your word.  I thank you for their lives, which we have been able to watch progress into manhood right here in our own little Church.  I pray that you would guide our conversation this night in your Spirit, and that you would have your way with us.  We submit to you now, and we open our hearts to your truth, and we pray that you would give us the humility to accept your word, and to be obedient to it as we live before you...

Curt:  Yes Lord!

Pastor Smythe:  that we would honor you not only with our words, and in our hearts, but with our deeds, and with our lives.  That we would be ready to stand up for YOUR truth, and YOUR word, rather than our own...

Jacob:  Yes Lord God.

Pastor Smythe:  We claim your promise, that when two or more are gathered in your name, that you will be here among us.  Guide and strengthen us as we share together in your spirit.  We pray this in Jesus precious name, Amen

Jacob:  Amen.

Curt: Amen.

Pastor Smythe: Well, as I understand it, you attended our Men's bible study recently Jacob!

Jacob:  Yes, I had been out of the Church for quite some time, I'm not really sure why, but I decided to get back into fellowship with the folks here at the church.

Pastor Smythe: Well, that's fantastic Jacob!  We are very happy to see you again, and I am glad you have returned to fellowship here.

Jacob:  Thank you Pastor.  The feeling is mutual.

Curt: The feeling is mutual for me too Pastor, but as you know, I have some deep concerns for Jacob's spiritual state, after having been out of the Church for so long.  As I explained to you when I asked for this meeting, those concerns stem from a conversation Jacob and I had after that same Men's study that he attended.

Pastor Smythe:  Yes Curt, I know why we are here tonight.  Jacob, Curt came to me very concerned that you have developed some attitudes concerning American involvement in Iraq, and in fact, he seems to think those attitudes may extend to the President as well.

Jacob:  Well Pastor, if you are referring to how appalled I was with the contents of that particular bible study I attended, I would have to say that Curt's assessment of the situation is accurate.  I assume Curt will not deny that the contents of that particular study ended up being about the American response to the attacks of 9-11, rather than the Book of Romans, as I was led to believe the study was about.  It was THAT content that I had a problem with.  The regular topic for that evening was not the problem.

Curt: Well yes, a few of the Men had discussed the subject before the study, and I felt led to discuss those things rather than the usual content, since this seemed to be heavy on the Men's hearts that night.  Sometimes the Spirit leads to things we don't intend to discuss you know.

Jacob:  I agree with that Curt.  In fact, I believe that is exactly what happened that night.

Curt:  Does that indicate a change of attitude since the last time we talked Jacob?  Have you changed your mind about these things?  You are agreeing that the spirit led that Bible study?

Jacob: No, not at all Curt, I haven't changed one bit in the last 15 years.  I simply said that I do agree that the Spirit intended for the subject to change that night, as I believe he intended for You and I to have the conversation that we had that evening, which led to this meeting we are in now, which I also believe is of the Spirit.

Pastor Smythe:  Ok, I can agree that sometimes in extreme cases, and in extreme cases only, the topic of study could be altered by the spirit, although I would hope that the contents of our Men's and Women's bible studies would remain on track for the most part.

Curt: Oh yes, don't get the wrong idea here, we stay on task in the study.  This particular night I felt led to minister to the important issues that were on the Men's hearts that night.  I assume since you let me lead the study, that you are confident in my ability to follow the lead of the spirit on these things?

Pastor Smythe: Yes, the church has every confidence in your ability to lead the study Curt.  Jacob, why don't you share with me what it was that, as you put it, appalled you so much about what was said in that study that night. 

Jacob:  Curt led the study with a speech that was like a political soapbox speech about how there needed to be justice for the families that lost loved one's in the 9-11 attacks, how terrorists needed to be basically mass murdered and removed from the earth.  He then went on to proclaim how George bush is a "godly" man, and that the war in Iraq was his mission for God.  I found this speech to be both offensive, and entirely scripturally unsound.  At the end of the study, he led with a prayer that basically rebuked sharply, no even called accursed, anyone disagreeing with Mr. Bush's "War on Terror".  He finished off with a number of praises for God's "Holy nation", and that God would continue to bless America.

Curt:  See what I am talking about Pastor?  He comes in here after more than a decade of being out of the Church, and starts judging.  He obviously judges President Bush as something other than Christian, and even though the Church as a whole supports him, HE can sit here and say that we are all wrong, and he even told me that God was wroth with this kind of thinking.

Pastor Smythe:  Ok Curt, let me discuss this with Jacob, and let's see where this thinking comes from shall we?

Curt: Ok, however you wish to proceed is fine with me, because you will see that what I am saying is true.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, it seems that you feel that, A. the War on Terror is something other than what we think it is, B. That Mr. Bush is something other than Christian, and  C. that America is not a Christian nation?  Can you give me some basis for these assumptions?

Jacob: Sure, I would be happy to explain how I feel about these things.  The first thing you mentioned was the "War on Terror".  Yes Pastor, I definitely think the War on Terror is not what it is being portrayed to be by our government.  Look what they did here:  They get our approval to go into Afghanistan and "get justice" for the 3000 families that lost loved ones in the attacks of 9-11.  They oust the government there, and begin the "hunt" for Osama Bin Laden, who claimed responsibility for the attacks.  So far so good, they are where we told them to go, doing what we the people told them to do. Not that I even agree with that, but at least they are doing what they were commissioned to do.  

Pastor Smythe:  Ok, I see so far, please continue.

Jacob:  Now if you remember, shortly before these events, Saddam Hussein put Iraq on the Euro.

Pastor Smythe: Yes, I remember that.

Jacob:  Now, just weeks after removing the Government in Afghanistan, they completely drop the ball in Afghanistan.  Having not captured Osama Bin Laden, which was the reason we sent our military there, and they take 130,000 troops and go into Iraq.  While claiming a DISPROVED connection between Iraq and the attacks of 9-11, they take over the 2nd largest Oil reserve on the planet, and Iraq miraculously finds itself back on the dollar.

Pastor Smythe: So you feel they already had motivation to go into Iraq, and that it had nothing to do with the war on terror?

Jacob:  If that isn't painfully obvious to the American public by now, and I might add to the Christian Church, I believe there is a tremendous problem afoot.

Pastor Smythe: Well, Jacob you do know that the President, and most of the rest of the world agree that the war in Iraq is the center of the war on terror right?

Jacob: Pastor, the reason that Iraq is the center of the War on Terror right now is because we put 130,000 American troops there.  In a region that terrorists don't have to cross the ocean to get to, of course they are going to go there.  WE made Iraq the center of the War on terror.

    I mean take a look at what has been accomplished by this war so far, and you will see the real reasons why this government needed to go into Iraq, and why they took advantage of the attacks on 9-11 to do so.  America now controls the Oil rich land of Iraq, and that same country is now back on the dollar.  All the corporate billionaire friends of this administration are taking in billions and billions of dollars on the continued operations there.  Meanwhile, all 4 of the reasons we were told we needed to go into Iraq have been proven to be false.  The only reason that has remained has been that Saddam Hussein needed to be ousted, and that isn't even what this was about in the first place.  Osama Bin Laden is free, and more attention is given to Al-Za-Cowardly than is given to him.   Obviously because he is in Iraq, and that is where they want to concentrate on now.  Bin Laden is hardly even mentioned anymore, beyond a News blurb every once in a while to say they are still looking.

Pastor Smythe: Wouldn't you agree that Saddam Hussein was a terrible dictator, and that he killed millions of his own people over the years?  You can't see the reasons why this man needed to be taken from power?

Jacob: Let me ask you this pastor:  before Desert Storm in 1991, Iraq had a 6 million man military force.  Just prior to this recent occupation, there were roughly 300,000 Soldiers in Iraq's military.  We read reports of nearly a million deserters because of the Desert Storm operation. that's 1.3 million men.  What do you suppose happened to the other 4.7 million men?  They were killed by the American military in Desert Storm, and in the following years of enforcing the no fly zones.  So we can see that the Bushes have killed millions of Iraq's own people too, and we haven't yet discussed the hundreds of thousands of NON military people that have been killed in Iraq between 1991 and now.  Does this mean that the Bushes need to be removed from power?

Curt: That is just ridiculous.  How can one equate what Saddam Hussein did to his own people, with the deaths of his military in Desert Storm.  America went to Iraq to free an entire country from an evil dictator.  How can you say the deaths of his soldiers is the same thing.

Jacob:  There is some more of that worldly understanding right there Curt.  That is exactly the way the world perceives things.  When they do it, it is evil and unjust, and when we do it, it is a godly mission.  Yet, you still to this day have not offered one word of scripture to defend your position.  I have heard nothing but man's reasoning and justification for what's happening, no scripture to back it up at all.

Pastor Smythe:  Obviously Jacob, we wouldn't be able to call those two things the same.

Jacob:  Yes, and most of the Christian Church in America today won't either.  That is exactly why I agreed to come to this meeting, and it is exactly the kind of thinking that has to be spoken to by the Church.  When the kingdoms of this world do this kind of thing, it is to be expected.  It is the way the world is.  My problem comes when the Church lends its moral, and spiritual approval to these actions, when we are clearly told in scripture not to live or act this way.  When the Church tries to cast our Lord as one who waves an American flag, and is a man of war.  This is as close to blasphemy as one can get in my opinion.  It is an incredible betrayal of the principles that Jesus taught us, and of the life that he lived before men's eyes.

Curt:  Yes Jacob, your opinion.  Let's keep that in mind.

Jacob: It is an opinion that is supported by the life and the words of Jesus Christ Curt.  You people that think Jesus is a man of war amaze me.  That he would be waving an American flag if here were here today.  THAT is what is ridiculous Curt.  The fact that you haven't said one word about all that has been said here, that they dropped the ball in Afghanistan, that their buddies are making billions, that Iraq is back on the dollar, that America now has a solid source of oil, that the prices of that Oil are so high now that WE control it, while the average American pays 3 bucks for a gallon of Gas.  What about how Chevron Texaco, Exxon Mobil, and Halliburton are having their best years ever.  What about these things Curt?  I haven't heard anything from Pastor Smythe on these items either, and you know why?  Because they are the truth Curt, that's why.

Pastor Smythe: Although I do see some of what you are saying as true Jacob, I don't see how the resulting deaths of Iraqi military since 1991 can be equated with the murder of millions of Iraqis by Saddam Hussein. 

Jacob:  I have always respected you Pastor, but this stuff has to be looked at.  The end result is still millions of Iraqi deaths.  How can American officials say that millions of Iraqi deaths is the best way to stop millions of Iraqi deaths?  It's insanity to think that insanity stops insanity.  My concern is, how will the American Christian distance himself from those millions of deaths when he stands before God, while he lends his moral support, and even his spiritual support to this worldly mess!  America is not the kingdom of God, and the Church should not be engaging in this stuff.

Pastor Smythe: I don't think anyone believes that America is the kingdom of God Jacob.

Jacob:  Then why does the Leadership of the American Christian Church think that it is it's duty to enter into the political arena and "take back the country, and the world for Christ".  It is evident in the writings of Pat Robertson, Chuck Swindoll, D. James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, and many other prominent Christian leaders.  Why do American Christians like Curt equate their citizenship in America with their citizenship in the kingdom of God?  Do you agree with the Church supporting War and Bloodshed to further the Gospel Pastor?  "Freedom and Liberty"? "Democracy"?

Curt:  I do not equate my citizenship in the kingdom of God with my citizenship in America Jacob.  I support my government's actions, and I support our President.  I don't judge him like you do.

Jacob:  No, you simply turn a blind eye to the atrocities that his administration is committing, and tout it's actions as a godly mission.  You DO equate your citizenships Curt.  You said that night in that study that America is a Godly nation, and that what George Bush is doing is of God.  Even though you have NO scripture to back those positions.  You prayed that people who disagree with this war are accursed.  When you tailor your spiritual confessions to fit the government "party line" so to speak, you have sold your Christianity into slavery to the actions of that government.  When you say, "America is a Godly nation and what it is doing is of God" you HAVE made your citizenship in God's kingdom one and the same with your citizenship in America.

Curt:  So what are you saying Jacob, we aught to stand around and wait for Islamic terrorists to come over here and KILL US??  That we should just stand by and not defend our Country? And what is wrong with taking this country back for Christ?  You talk about how I haven't offered any scripture to back up my position, what scripture do you offer to support that thinking?

Jacob:  You haven't heard a word I have said here Curt, have you.  In Iraq today, we are NOT fighting the people that came over here and attacked us!  That has been my point all along.  They lied about it, and you are so zealous for revenge against whoever killed all those people on 9-11, that you don't even care about that.  But as far as revenge is concerned, and even if Iraq WAS the "War on Terror", I am glad you asked that Curt.  As far as Islamic terrorists coming over here and killing us?  I can think of a few scriptures that support my position.  for instance what about 

2 Timothy 3:12 áYea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution?  

and what about 

John 16:2 áThey shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service.

    As if that doesn't describe exactly what a Muslim does when he kills Christians?  What did Jesus tell us to do about that kind of treatment, how does he tell us to respond?  Well, for starters Curt, how about 

Mathew 5: 43-45  you have heard it said Love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you. That you may be children of your Father in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5:11-12 áBlessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. áRejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

And in the Garden of Gethsemane, when Peter drew a sword and cut off the priest's servant's ear?  Jesus didn't even want his followers to raise a sword to defend him.

Matthew 26:52 áThen said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Revelation 13:10 áHe that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    Do you think this scripture applies to the Muslim, but does not apply to you?  Yes, Muslims kill in the name of God, and that is a heinous evil.  Why is it not heinous when America does it?  Just because they live this way is not a call for us to.

Matthew 5:39 áBut I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

What did Paul say Curt?

Romans 12:17 áRecompense to no man evil for evil.  Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 áSee that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

    There is a clear message that exists as a theme throughout the New Testament, and that message is that the followers of Jesus Christ do not take up the sword in defense of the Gospel, in defense of their land, or even in defense of their own lives.  We were told to expect those things, and to rejoice in them for herein is manifest the Son's and daughters of God.

Curt:  I'm sorry but I just don't believe that we are to stand by and let others kill us.

Jacob:  Then you just don't believe the scriptures, and you don't believe the word of God as it was told to us through his Son.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, I don't know of I would go as far as to say that Curt doesn't believe the scriptures on this.  That is a very harsh judgment that I don't think any of us should make.

Jacob:  Pastor, the words just came out of his own mouth.  I did not make a judgment, I just said what his confession meant.  Jesus told us that we would be hated, mistreated, persecuted, reviled, beaten, and even killed because we are his followers.  He told us to rejoice in those circumstances, He told us not to take up the sword, He told us that we are not greater than our Lord, and that if they did these things to him, they would do them to us.  

    How does that stack up with this "preemptive strike" philosophy the government is peddling on the Church?  How does that stack up with the Church raising their fists and praising what George Bush's administration is doing in the world today?  Would God raise up men that would bear false witness against other world leaders, and kill millions of people to promote his word?  I think not.  When a man says in the face of these scriptures that he simply doesn't believe that we should live by them, he is saying he doesn't believe the word of God or the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

Pastor Smythe:  Jacob, your knowledge of the scriptures is good, and a lot of what you are saying is true, I won't deny that.  However, I think it is important not to get too caught up in something like this, or to get off on a tangent about things.  I also think the scripture teaches that we are to test the spirits whether or not they are of God.  I would remind you that Curt is a respected member of this church, that has been faithfully serving the Church for many years, and he brought you here tonight out of genuine concern for your spiritual welfare.

Jacob:  I don't have a problem with Curt Pastor.  And I understand why he brought about this meeting.  It is the same concern for him in which I agreed to come to this meeting in the first place.  His confessions, and I might add confessions that are being taught to the Men in the Bible study that you allow him to teach, are unscriptural.  They deny the very foundational principles of what Jesus taught us.  Furthermore, I don't think the fact that Curt is a respected member of this church makes any difference to the importance of that conversation.  James 2:1  My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.  

    As you well know, and as you said just now, we are to try the spirits whether they are of God, and I can not remain silent, because I believe that this nationalism, this patriotism, this new political activist stance the Church is taking, and the way Christians are literally ignoring the truths that are paraded on the News every night for them, just to maintain that George Bush is a Christian, so they can "support their country" is a spirit that is most definitely NOT of God.

Curt:  Unbelievable.

Jacob:  Unbelievable?  Apparently so Curt, Apparently so.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, you have given me a lot to think about here tonight.  Your words are very persuasive, and you have a lot of scripture to back up what you are saying.  I have a difficult time understanding how the entire Church in America could have lost its contact with the holy sprit, and I have a hard time believing that so many of the leadership don't have strong scriptural backing for the things they are teaching in this country.  Our denomination stands very strong behind This President, and I have a hard time believing that this is not of God.  I am going to have to pray about these things, and decide what to do here.

Jacob:  Decide what to do?

Pastor Smythe: Yes, decide what to do.  You may as well know, that Curt has asked in light of these developments whether or not it is wise to have you speaking this way in the congregation of this Church.  He has asked me to consider if it would be wise to ask you not to attend Church functions, until we can sort this out.

Curt:  Jacob, the church is more united on this thing than they have ever been on anything, and we can not have those in the church spreading discord among the brethren.  All of the mainstream Christian leadership are saying it is the Church's responsibility to keep detractors from bringing division in among the Church.  You are speaking words that are going to cause many Christians to second guess the leadership of the Church and that can not be allowed to happen.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, it is not my intention to have you removed from the church, nor is it my goal to stifle discussion about these matters among Christians.  However, as Pastor of this Church it is my responsibility to keep order, and to submit to the authorities that God has placed over me in the Church.  I have a meeting with the regional leadership of our denomination in a couple of days.  I will bring up the things you have said here, and I will point out the scriptures that you have mentioned here, and will see what the leadership has to say.  We will go from there.

Jacob:  I see.  I have a question at this point.  I assume the scriptures that talk about submitting to authorities, and that God has placed all authority in place, are what would cause you gentlemen to believe that we as Christians are to support the government, and to obey them?

Curt:  That is exactly what I am saying.  I am also saying that the scriptures that say that casting out those who cause division and strife in the Church, and to have no part with them are the reason why you need to be asked not to fellowship here.

Pastor Smythe:  What I am saying Jacob, is that those scriptures do exist as well as the ones that you have mentioned here.  I think we need to look at the big picture, and to decide what is best for the Church.  In my case, being the senior Pastor here, I have to look at the big picture, and decide what is best for THIS congregation.

Jacob: So then, when Paul, Peter, and most of the disciples stood before the rulers, and leaders of their day, and said 

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.  

    You don't see that as the scripture teaching that we are in fact to obey our leaders, and honor their laws, until it conflicts with the Word, and will of God?  Were the disciples fighting against God when they refused to obey the leadership even to their own deaths?  Was Jesus "judging his leaders", when he called the chief priests of the temple hypocrites?

Pastor Smythe:  Like I said Jacob, you have a very persuasive argument, and I do not take lightly the things you have said here.  Yes, I agree with you that we are not to obey leadership that instructs us to disobey God, and I will be praying about these things, and I promise you, I will present them to the leadership.  I will contact you again later in the week.

Curt: The Church is in the middle of a massive revival right now Jacob, and it is every Christian's duty to keep the enemy from destroying that.

Jacob:  You call what we are seeing in the Church today a revival Curt?  Just because thousands and thousands of revenge crazed backsliders have flocked back to the Church because the Church supports the War on Terror?  Because the "newly packaged" Gospel of prosperity and tolerance, is drawing the world to sit in church seats?  Because the repentanceless gospel of "I'm ok you're ok" has been conformed to an image that the world can accept, and therefore comes flocking in?  I don't call that a revival Curt I call it Apostasy, and the scripture said this day would come.  every single thing that is going on in the world right now, the scripture said it would come.

Curt:  Is this where you tell us that America is the Prophetic Babylon Jacob?  Is this where you tell us that the War on terror is the beginning of the Gog/Magog war?

Pastor Smythe:  Well I certainly don't know if I could say...

Jacob:  No. This is not where I say those things Curt.  If they are true, they will become clear in time to those who are open to the revelation that God will give them, and those who have ears to hear the truth.  But I will tell you this, to those who do not have ears that are open for the truth, and to those who do not have a love for the truth, all that will come is strong delusion.

Pastor Smythe:  ok gentlemen, I think we have accomplished about all we can accomplish here tonight.  Jacob, let's plan on getting together again next week, just you and I, and we will discuss this some more.

Curt:  Pastor...

Pastor Smythe:  No Curt, I am not going to make a decision here tonight about Jacob fellowshipping here at the Church.  As I said, I will bring this issue before the leadership, and we will go from there.  Jacob, I will call you this week and we will decide on a time to meet?

Jacob: That will be fine by me Pastor.  So you will be "Casting me out of the synagogue" at that time Pastor?  Is that what is going to happen here?

Pastor Smythe:  Not if I can help it Jacob, that is the last thing on my mind at this point.

Jacob:  Ok, goodnight Gentlemen.



    Turning to leave Jacob feels a sense of foreboding, knowing the probable outcome of this matter.  He feels a great sense of loss and sorrow, as these men literally walk in the footsteps of end times prophecy.  He is determined to pray, and seek that God's will be done in this situation, and that he will have the Grace to reflect the Spirit of God as this situation unfolds.  Curt remains in the Pastor's office After Jacob leaves...



Curt:  Pastor, I don't understand why you didn't ask Jacob not to attend Church functions until this matter is resolved.  More importantly, until he cleanses his attitude, and listens to the leadership God has placed in the Church today.  Did you see how he judges everyone as wrong to support the President?  How he judges the President himself?

Pastor Smythe:  Let me explain to you why I didn't do that Curt.  Because on the matters we discussed in here tonight, that man cleaned our clocks both scripturally, and spiritually.  I was completely without the words, and more importantly without scriptures to defend against what he said in here tonight, and I think that is a serious issue.  I am going to have to pray about the things said in here tonight, and I am going to have to try that spirit if it is or is not of God.  I am also not willing to say at this time that it is not of God.

Curt:  You can't be serious!

Pastor Smythe:  I am serious Curt.  Deadly serious.  I will be bringing the things he said before the leadership with some real questions in my heart, and I will be looking for some answers.  I will call you after the meeting and we will discuss it then.  

Curt:  Ok Pastor, I will look forward to your call, and I will be praying for you.  Goodnight.

Pastor Smythe: Thank you.  Good night.



    What will become of this situation?  Will Jacob be asked to leave the Church?  Will Curt be corrected by the Pastor, and told to change his views or be removed from teaching responsibilities in the Church?  Does this Pastor agree with Jacob on these things?  If he does, what if the leadership does not?  Will he go against the grain?  Stay tuned for the final installment of this important and relevant 21st Century Conversation!


In Christ, F.E.Reilly

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